"A hug is worth a thousand words. A friend is worth more."
- Sent by Jasmine Fitzwilliam

Savi and mself have been friends since childhood.
We do not have too much in common and we do not meet that often as we do not live in the same city.
Lately she had a major car accident. She had to have her face restructured. It has changed so much that the authorites find it difficult to identify her from her photograph.
What touched my heart was that when she visited a temple in te South of India and they asked her to name a good friend. She named me???

At the moment I am reading a great book called 'Snow Flower and the Secret Fan' by Lisa See.

It is a beautiful heart breaking story on friendship. It is set in 19th Century China, in a remote Hunan County. A girl named Lily, at the tender age of seven is paired with a 'laotong' or 'old same' in an emotional match that will last a lifetime...

ok I am back in Aamchi Mumbai!
The flight was uneventful but long!
The way I deal with it is take one flight at a time...Had to change planes 3 times!
Watched interesting films:
Walk the line, The Virgin queen, Anne Frank...all true stories!
So living the life of great people, makes time fly...
Sitting next to me on a flight was an interesting Scottish lady, 68 years old.
She lost her husband to cancer and thought to herself: Either I sink or float and fly!
And that is what she did! Fly! literally and metaphorically!
She has one daughter in Nashville, another in Singapore!
She meets them every three months for no longer than 2 weeks!
She says, she loves them dearly but leaves before they start getting into each other's space!
She has the means...so she travels..alone and at her own terms...Like me, she does not like taking tours because they treat you like sheep: Get up, sit down...move...
People tell her, like they tell me that she is brave...I think it is not really a question of bravery.
It is a question of having the enthusiasm to explore the world of the Creator...It is empowering...Think about what can be more empowering than to connect with the Utmost Artist through His Creation...It gives one a High...
So the plane flies high, Time Flies...Like in life one connects with fellow passengers (but here, without getting attached or entertain rancour)

...and before you know it, it is time to land...well no, I have not been completely honest...knees and joints feel cramped, and one does need a few day's rest to recuperate, but at my age and stage who will complain? definitely, not me!
In fact I am at the moment pampering myself by staying in bed and enjoying it!

Julie Redstone states: 'An awakened heart cannot respond indifferently to life because it sees the outstretched hand of the Creator at every turn and in every particle of experience'

Time to go home!
It has been a wonderful holiday which I have enjoyed with Madhavi and her lovely family...boys have grown and they have kept me happily entertained!
I shall miss them...It is at times like this that one is happy that one has had more than one kid!
A long flight awaits me...
Take care and God bless!

Most people think that to be spiritual one has to be serious and life denying!
Why?
I love the lyrics of the song from the movie 'Chitralekha'
...Sansaar se bhaagey phirtey ho
Bhagwan ko tum kya paayoge?
Is lok ko bhi apna na sakey
us lok mein bhi pachhtaogey!...

Time to return to Aamchi Mumbai!
Have had a great time!
Must be grateful for holidays...
They are always refreshing!
So see you soon

The View from the room at Destin Florida



Floating on an Emerald Sea



Mohan, Aditya, Kiran: They claimed it was an uplifting experience!



Madhavi...Looking beautiful and content!



Enjoying Destin!
Weather has been lovely!
There are 2 restaurants with strange names:
Hog's Breath and Bad Ass...can u belv that?
Obviously people remember and talk about names like that...and they succeed...here I am telling you about it!

Aditya, my grandson, on the white sands of Destin Florida


Destin is home to some of the worlds most beautiful beaches. The crystal clear water and the sugar white sands have given the Emerald Coast area a reputation as one of America's premier vacation destinations.



Arrived in Destin, Florida after a scenic 8 hr drive from Nashville. The beach is lovely, a stone throw away from the apt (Sand Dunes) which is is v. comfy like the one in bangkok. ....yesterday watched the fireworks (4th of July) from the waterfront...v. beautiful and a great experience!
The sand is white...like snow.
Today planning on taking a dip in the so green Ocean!

Shiksha, Kiran, Simran, Aditya in Panera Nashville







Aditya and Nani Shakun at Pancake Pantry...had yummy pancakes and crumbling Croissants!







Mother Daughter








Madavi Aditya Kiran






Madhavi Me Nandini, a student daughter









Golden Girls in Nandini Nashville Party. From Left, Bhagwani from Curacao, Shakun, Sheila and Ms Wadhwa

NASHVILLE JUNE/JULY 08




Nashville Balaji Temple. Me with a devotee!







At a dinner at Rumbha with Madhavi, Mohan, Nandini Arun, Deepa Kumar








With Madhavi, my daughter of course, can't you guess?












Proud nani with Kiran












Happy nani with Aditya

Inside Grotte La Merveilleuse, the stalactites and stalagmites which look like Shivalingams. (Theyare made oof calcium with the help of water drops that drip inside the mountain...






It is Fairyland! At Dinant (Belgium) See the River Meuse, Church, Citadelle!
Then see me, missing my dear ones...but happy at having had the opportunity to visit this beautiful place!

















INSIDE A CHURCH AT DINANT...as usual I bought a rosary for myself...I do have a neat collection from the various churches and cathedrals that I have visited!














Brussel Square ...Pls take my word when I tell you that it was stunning! The Square, not me :) and the picture does not do it much justice!














Myself at the entrance of La Grotte, La Marveilleuse (Dinant)
BRUSSELS



Arrived this morning (18th June 2008) around 7am ...flight was comfy, service was good and I managed to catch a little sleep...
Got into the hotel and was informed that there is a strike in the city, but if I took a train I wd be safe...So I did. Took a bus tour but they did not allow us to alight from the bus...later I walked around in the main city...The 'square' is absolutely stunning!(PLS LOOK UP THE INTERNET) I have seen pics of it but it just does not do any justice...i just sat there with my mouth open thanking the Lord for this opportunity...had pancakes with strawberries and chocolate sauce for lunch...later did a little shopping and my day cannot be complete unless I share it with those I care for...so here it is.
Tomorrow will flow...maybe I will stroll around some more or I may go to a town a few hrs away which I am told is beautiful.Shall tell you about it tomorrow.
Now will have a light dinner and zzzzz
Much love,

19th June 08
Today was a tremendously adventurous day. Changed trains 3 times to get to Dinant (End of day in Hindi :)
but it was worth every minute. Buses are horrible...they treat you like sheep...so I thought I wd be more daring...it is ok to be daring at well, won't tell you my age...but this note is meant to inspire us women...empower us women...Dinant was like Salzburg...Heavenly...went on a cable car, on a kind of fort La Citadelle, walked by the River Meuse...Saw 'La Grotte, La Marveilleuse' (These are caves with stalactites and stalgmites) It is like God's wonderland formed thousands of years ago, we go INTO a mountain...You know as I sat there I thought to myself...The energy here has to be tremendous as it is unspoilt by the outside world! It is like sitting in the womb of the earth.You can't imagine how much I have walked today...so I am as young as I feel, right?
I feel sixteen, going on sixty! How is that?
Thanks husband dear and dear kids for calling so many times...
I feel good!
Keep it up when I return home.
Luvs

20th June 2008
Hello from the States!
Nashville Tennesee

So beautiful and Peaceful!

...I hv been connecting with people in such a strange way...but then these are the ways of Krishna...

On the flight sitting next to me was a gentleman who works on Peace on a global level...told him about Peace as well as our Vrindavan project...has promised to stay in touch and to check out the websites...

About Peace: In Brussels on my way to Dinant, I met this gentle sophisticated lady who helped me with schedules of trains. In belgium french is spoken more than english...I dont know why...She must hv been in so much 'dukh' that she confided that she had lost her child...(the heart needs no language) there was no need to speak...I just held her hand!

What Karmic connections

Would you believe that just a stone throw away from Pridarshini Park, near Simla House, there is a Garden called ShantiVan where peacocks roam free.
Lord Krishna sports a peacock feather on his head...I shall tell you why, if you ask me...
In the meantime see Manju and her peaceful expression as a peacock passes close by...
We have oue Eager Be Group meetings once a month in Shanti Van...Ar'nt we lucky?

Nandhini Ashok Shree Paavitra Arts Academy


Nandhini Ashok is the Founder and Trustee of Shree Paavitra Arts Academy and a performer and teacher of Bharatanatyam classical dance form....She is a good human being and she is particular close to my heart because she is a Krishna devotee and shares the passion of serving and making this world a better place.

She invited members of Times Foundation and Women's Movement for Peace and Prosperity (WMPP) to the International dance Day celebrated on 29th April since 1982 at Nehru Centre Worli.

We enjoyed a fascinating performance by:
Odissi Donna Ganguly and her troupe from Kolkatta
Kuchupudi Jayapriya Vikraman from Chennai
Bharat Natyam Nandhini Ashok and teachers of Shree Paavitra Arts Academy (Mumbai)

On the 30th of May Nandhini invited us to the Arangetram of her student Kritika Seth
at Iskcon auditorium Juhu.
Kritika was delightful in every way!
Good luck and may the Indian Arts continue to thrive and inspire.

MAYA DASWANI AND MYSELF



Meet my friend Maya Daswani...definitely an achiever...She was always enthusiastic...her enthusiasm 'rang laaya' and she is doing what she is a natural in...She grooms people in 'table manners' 'dress' 'confidence' demeanour, body language and the list goes on...because she goes on and on exploring her potential and as she does...she takes other women along...Great going Maya..!
Today she is much sought after by well known national and international organizations.

ROLE OF RELIGION IN WORLD PEACE HARMONY


On the 2nd of April 2008, a group from Times Foundation attended a conference on World Peace Harmony.
We were invited by Mr Somaiya at Faizullabhoy building.
I particularly enjoyed hearing Mr Jeffrey Armstrong's spirited speech on 'Appreciating and Understanding the Wisdom of the Vedas correctly'

I do believe:
The Upanishads claim that the Atman (God within us) cannot be reached through much learning or much use of the intellect. Jesus Christ proclaims: "Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." The Katha Upanishad proclaims "The path is narrow as the edge of a razor." Jesus said : "Narrow Is the way which leads unto life." Hindus believe that we are a small part (atman ) of the whole (Paramatma). In other words we are the same children of God and enjoy the same inherent qualities. Christians also believe that man is made in the likeness of God, and the Kingdom of God is within each one of us. Jesus Christ claimed; "I and my Father are one".

We Hindus believe In a Trinity: Brahma (Creator), Vishnu (Preserver), Mahesh (Destroyer).
Christians believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit
The occultists believe in Light, Love and Power
and
Humanity at large believes in Mind, Body and Soul.

INTERACTION WITH TIMES FOUNDATION HAS BEEN A PICNIC (TO LONAVLA)






It has been wonderful interacting with these beautiful girls...who have so helped with their mind, body and soul to bring about a change!

For Pic TOI girls group : (from left – Ms Kamal Damania , Ms Naghma Firdaus in the front row. Second Row – (from left) Ms Claudia Patrick; Ms Aditi Khire; Ms Suvarna Arvind; Ms Jyoti Nagda and Ms Seema Ansari






LIFE IS A JOURNEY...EN ROUTE TO LONAVLA
(From left – Mr. Kapil Kapoor, Ms Claudia Patrick, Mr. Hemant Mohite, Mr. Ram Maheshwary and Ms Naghma Firdaus






LIFE IS ALSO A SONG AND DANCE...EXHAUSTING BUT EXHILARATING!






I have often wondered why we yearn to travel, to explore, to learn...I have heard before that 'God is in our genes' and so I suppose is the quest for Him... We all yearn to explore our many facets, and we all aspire to know more and seeking is a natural state of being- whether about the outside world or self!
Adventure tourism gains much of its excitement by allowing its participants to step outside of their comfort zone. It may be any tourist activity which may include: a physical activity, a cultural exchange or interaction, and engagement with nature.

It has been all the above and more in my learning/Interaction with Times Foundation during the last 8 years
We may have had our share of 'mountain climbing' but all in all it has been a 'picnic' where

During travel one should "expect the unexpected"...Be ready for some excitement!

Shivji is called 'Bhola' (innocent, kind hearted, easily pleased) because it is believed that He is easily pleased and grants boons instantly (hence he is called Ashutosh). Krishna, in comparison is a difficult God to please. You see Krishna is not interested in rituals. He wants total surrender and Love. So it depends upon what you consider easy or difficult.

For more click:
http://www.dalsabzi.com/Language_Festivals/shivratri.htm

Blessings of Hindi Dadi Nani ki Kahaani




The English Edition of Dadi Nani ki Kahaani was released by Sri L.K.Advani a few years ago.
Click:
http://www.dalsabzi.com/books/kids_kahaani/kahaani_intro.htm







Alongside my Didi Janki Indu G.Vee(Husband's sister) who I requested, to bless the Hindi Translation of Dadi Nani ki Kahaani when we celebrated Akshaya Tritiya!

Do scroll down this blog to learn more about my Hindi translated book!

Click:
http://www.dalsabzi.com/books/kids_kahaani/DNkk_Hindiscript.pdf

...and here one more good person: Shashi Mahajan.
I met her husband on the internet. He appreciated my Dadi Nani ki Kahaani and remarked that it should be available in Hindi.
I asked: Would you like to do it? and he replied that his wife would...and you know what? obviously Hari's Icchhaa was also there so the Hindi version of Dadi Nani ki Kahaani saw the light of day.
Click:

http://www.dalsabzi.com/books/kids_kahaani/DNkk_Hindiscript.pdf

AN NGO WITH A DIFFERENCE Here is a photo in which Shashi is sitting guard of 2 sets of gifts. ( Atempts were made to steal some items).

Eight marriages, 8 baraats, 8 brides, 350 plus guests, 8 vedies, 8 pandits, a fairy tale scenario opened up at 10.00 a.m. on 13th April,2008 ( Baisakhi Day) at the Sanatan Dharm Mandir, Janakpuri, New Delhi.
Third in the series of Saral Vivah Mahayagyas, it was organized by the B Block Branch of Bharat Vikas Parishad - an NGO - with a difference. Last year it was 5 and the previous year it was 4 such marriages organized.

Identifying the needy would - be couples is an onorous task which is achieved with the help of social workers who actually work at ground level in the slum areas.

Bharat Vikas Parishad is a socio-cultural organization that has pledged to uphold and promote the spiritual and moral values enshrined in our rich heritage. With its first branch established in Delhi in 1963, it presently has a membership of over 30 lakhs all over India and overseas. B Block Janakpuri is one of the most active Branches and had the distinction of winning several awards for its excellent work.

A set of gifts given to each bride included all necessities for setting up a new home.

Let's have an epidemic of goodness

You may wonder why I write good things about my colleages/friends/relatives...because it makes people feel good to be appreciated when they truly deserve it! Because it may inspire people to perform good deeds...The Lord knows that the newspapers are full of heinous acts...so many murders, senseless most of them! Killings in a fit of rage? I read the heart breaking story of the parents of Neeraj Grover who want to see 'their son's killer once in the eye' 14 year old Aarushi's murder, an honour killing???
Oh God! Do join with me and send up a prayer for the ones gone and others left behind...and yes appreciate the good in people you know...good deeds and bad ones are infectious...Let's start an epidemic of goodness...

Some time back trustees of Women's Movement for Peace and Prosperity (WMPP)met a dainty dynamic lady (Ms Supriya Sule) who believes in making a difference through quality education. She likes to look into 'taking care' of the progress of children with special needs like dyslexia, autism...and also the running of self-help groups with a difference.

From left: Ms Maya Shahani, Myself, Ms Supriya Sule (daughter of Mr Sharad Pawar) Ms Sunita Godbole, Ms Prema Iyer.
Though all the ladies in the group photograph are worthy of praise for the great work they do, this particular blog is to congratulate Ms Sunita Godbole, our young trustee of WMPP who can accomplish difficult tasks most of the time...because she perseveres and believes in herself.

TRUTH
There are three dimensions ordinarily available to approach truth.
The first dimension creates the scientist…the scientist works with analysis, reason, observation…
The second dimension, …the poet functions through the heart…the Sufis Bauls-they all have an aesthetic approach…hence they have so many beautiful mosques, churches, cathedrals, temples…
(M L Varadpande also states that Indian tradition considers all art to be of divine origin. Art is spiritual in nature and is a blissful way of reaching and staying with God)
The third approach is that of grandeur. The old testament prophets – Moses Abraham Islam’s prophet Mohammed; Krishna and Ram – their approach is through the dimension of grandeur…the awe that one feels looking at the vastness of the universe. The Upanishads, Vedas, they all approach the world of truth through grandeur. They are full of wonder. It is unbelievably there, such grandeur that you simply bow down before it—nothing else is possible…the rarity of a Buddha consists of this—that his approach is a synthesis of all the three and beyond the three.
No belief is required to travel with Buddha…first he convinces your mind…by and by you start feeling that he has a message which is beyond mind…Because of this rational approach he never brings any concept which cannot be proved…Because he has never talked about God, many think that he is an atheist—he is not.
He has not talked about God because there is no way to talk about God.

Buddha
Excerpted from Dhammapada
Osho

Three thoughts I woke up with this morning..it was resounding in me as I woke up.

Chaah gayee, Chintaa mitee, manwa beparvaah, jisey kachhu na chaahiyey wahi Shehen Shah!

Which means:
Desires have gone...Worries dissapeared...He who needs nothing is the real monarch!



Ab man nirmal bhayo jaisey Ganga Neer

Peechhey peechhey Hari phirey

kahat Kabeer Kabeer

kabeer says: My mind has purified like the water of the Ganges...and now the Lord follows me, chanting: Kabeer Kabeer...



and then I received the following:
(An excerpt of an email:

The only person, who is with us our entire life, is ourselves. Be ALIVE while you are alive.

Difficult Questions. Smart Answers


Not really funny, but Me laughing all the same!

I have heard 2 new stories that give me a smart answer to those, who ask me difficult Questions...

I have been conducting spiritual classes.discourses for over 30 years.

My students are asked by family/friends what they learned on that particular day, or the day before, and my students don't remember the points in detail...and that makes them the laughing stock of those who scoff at people 'wasting their time'.

I would answer:

Do you remember what you ate last year/month/day for breakfast/lunch/dinner..? I suppose not. but yet it nurtured your body. Similarly you may not remember what you heard last month/week/year...but it nurtures your soul...

The statement that many people make is that they will go for spiritual discourses when they are old.
A man fell ill and was supposed to take the medicine after breakfast/lunch/dinner...the nurse said she would give all the doses at night in one shot! Do you think that cured him?

Budh Jayanti




Alongside my husband Narain and myself
On the 19th 0f May we celebrate the birth day of Lord Buddha...It also happens to be my husband's Birthday...so do put your hands together for him...
Click to know about Lord Gautama Buddha:

http://www.dalsabzi.com/Message/buddha.htm

http://www.dalsabzi.com/Books/kids_kahaani/great_gurus/buddha.htm

Alongside My mother and myself.
Do click on the link:
http://www.dalsabzi.com/articles/a_mother.htm







Today, the 11 of May is Mother's Day...
so happy Mother's Day...On the 16th of April 2008 I attended the Shiamak Davar Spectacular: I believe.
As you see he is surrounded by beauties...but who did he pay homage to? His mother: Puran Nanabhoy Davar...and for her he sang: Because you loved me...
One seat in the audience is always reserved for Mama Davar...'and it is to her that Shiamak lovingly and unfailingly goes when the cue comes for him to sing the song'
So you macho boys and go-get girls, who never show your feelings, it is time to think of the one who rocks the cradle and rules the world!

Click:

http://www.dalsabzi.com/articles/a_mother.htm

Alongside: Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev and myself (in a blue saree...)

I like what Sadhguru has to say about Love:
Love essentially means somebody else has become more important than yourself…The moment you say: “I love you” you can no more do what you want in your life.
…Yet love is pleasant, sweet, it drags you in…If you do not annihilate yourself, you will never know love. Some part of you must die. If you don’t let this happen, there is no love, only calculation…however if you get very unreasonable, the other person will slowly back off…But devotion, bhakti is unreasonable love. It is one sided madness. That is the beauty of loving God because you don’t have to have a relationship—you can just love. And if you have a relationship. It’s all on your terms…
When people don’t love they are rigid…when they love, they are willing to surrender their likes, dislikes…you could call it annihilation, liberation, destruction, nirvana…the above is a fantastic spiritual process…
…The idea of looking up and loving Krishna, loving Jesus, having something up there or loving a guru is because you need not have any fear of entanglement from the other side. That is the beauty of devotion. Without some sense of love in you, without some sense of self-annihilation you cannot meditate. If you pull down the whole of what you call as : “myself” you will become absolutely still and transcendent.

Akshaye Tritiya falls on the 7th of May

It occurs on the third day of the bright half of Vaisaakh.
Hindus, Buddhists, Jains celebrate this day.
'AKSHAYE' means 'that which does not diminish
Every minute of the three and a half days is considered sacred.
It is believed that Satya Yuga and Treta Yuga started on this day.
New beginnings like weddings, business ventures, new deals, new audit books, business trips are considered to bring luck. Ved Vyaasa dictated and Lord Ganesha started to write the Mahabharata.
Read more.
Click:
http://www.dalsabzi.com/Language_Festivals/akshaya_tritiya_or_akshatrij_or_.htm

PEACE CIRCLE


Alongside View from my room in 'Asia Plateau' where I stayed...Please note the tableland of Panchgani in the background







Alongside Me, on the tableland of Panchgani







Alongside in the picture:
Peno from Nagaland, Priya from Jamshedpur. Jean Brown from Australia, Dawa from Tibet, Sarla from Pune, Zhanna from Russia,Dieky from Tibet, Dolna from Tibet, Youn Jeang from South Korea


I had a wonderful 2 nights stay, and attended a full day Conference
at Panchgani...This beautiful hill station is about a 5 hr drive from Bombay.
I stayed at Asia Plateau a huge place specially
reserved for Seminars...This conference was hosted
by the Peace Circle, Initative of Change originally
known as MRA (Moral Re-armament)

The main facilitator is Jean Brown a lady from U.K married
to an Australian gentleman.

Jean was fascinated by our (Women's Movement for Peace and Prosperity) 'Gems of Faiths' talks and was particularly intrigued with the fact that different Faiths people spoke from the same platform...
I Have been invited for a Conference
which will be held in Australia in 2009...Let us hope that we can provide some balm to our riot torn planet.

I learned a lot from the Peace Circle and had a great time. It was also a
wondeful experience as there were present for the conference, Tibetans, South
Koreans, Russian, Tibet, Indians, from Nagaland...and their striving for peace
was very emotional!
I also learned about what Peace really is and what
makes peace and breaks peace...
Some qualities of Peace Makers: Strong, Resilient, Forgiving, Loving, honest, faith, clarity of thought, empathetic, optimistic, sense of humour...

What are Peace Destroyers: Greed, selfishness, jealousy, lack of communication, prejudices, Non-forgiveness, hatred,dishonesty, revenge, bullying, disrespect, irresponsibility, hypocrisy, fears, anger, corruption, poverty, injustice, communal discord, war,history...

History cannot be unlived but if faced with courage it need not be lived again...
Angelou

Peace is when every person's need is being met...

Peace lives where compassion reigns...

WOMEN ACHIEVERS






Alongside: The names are from left to right -
Ms Sugandha Indulkar, Editor, Newspaper in Education,
Ms Naghma Firdaus, Senior Manager, Branch Heads Office

Ms Ambika Sharma - collected the award on behalf of Ms Saloni Doshi, Product & Brand Manager, Response Online

Ms Meenal Bhagel, Executive Editor, Mumbai Mirror.

Ms Bachi Karkaria – Consulting Editor, Times Of India

On Women's Day, March the 8th 2008, Times Foundation and Women's Movement for Peace an Prosperity celebrated the achievements of Times of India Group Women...Last year various leaders of NGOs were felicitated by Times...this year the leaders of those NGOs felicitated Women in Times because...

Women smile when they want to scream. They sing when
they want to cry.
They cry when they are happy and laugh when they are
nervous.
They fight for what they believe in.
They stand up to injustice.
They don't take "no" for an answer when they believe
there is a better solution.
They go without new shoes so their children can have them.
They cry when their children
excel and cheer when their friends get awards.
They are strong when they think there is no strength left.
They know that a hug and a kiss can heal a broken heart.
Women come in all sizes, in all colors and shapes.
They'll drive,fly,walk, run or e-mail you
to show how much they care about you.
The heart of a woman is what makes the world spin!
Women do more than just give birth.
They bring joy and hope. They give compassion and ideals.
They give moral support to their family and friends.
Women have a lot to say and a lot to give.

IT'S BEAUTIFUL WOMEN MONTH!
IT'S GOOD TO BE THE WOMAN
We got off the Titanic first.
We can scare male bosses with mysterious gynecological
disorder excuses.
Taxis stop for us.
We don't look like a frog in a blender when dancing.
We can make comments about how silly men
are in their presence, because they aren't listening anyway...